May 14, 2008 Richard and Eques engaged in a mini debate via email. It is very possible you too have been involved in this debate concerning Iraq, Terrorism, and the Intentions of Militant Islam. Eques is reasonably hopeful that you will find some of the points made familiar to you.
Here follows a Liberal versus Conservative point counter point exchange, enjoy.
To: Eques,
I'd say last night pretty much finished off Hillary's chances
Richard
To: Richard
Sweet home West Virginia))))))))))))))))
Eques
To: Eques
I think, even though I believe Obama will win the nomination, that Hillary is correct that Obama won't be able to win in November because he won't capture the white/blue collar vote, and West Virginia is the latest example of that.
Richard
To: Richard
I would not count Obama out of wining in November. I for one would never vote for Hillary, but I would for Obama. I find McCain dull and although a war hero I do not see him having a vision on the future. You have actually answered your own question; Hillary is staying in hopping in some way to still get the nomination. She will fight for the Florida and Michigan delegates and she will call in chips of super delegates. Because she believes that she alone can beat McCain. I think she is mistaken but that is why she remains...she will not quite until the last delegate vote
is cast at the convention. It could be a real Convention for a change and not a "rubber stamp
party."
Respectfully
Eques
To: Eques
Really????? Is it because you like him or because you don't like McCain? I didn't think you were really serious about voting for Obama! I agree about Obama being able to win in November. But mostly because the polls indicate the republicans are going to lose seats in congress and the public generally wants a change in the white house.
I like his views on a lot of things. For instance, I thought he was correct about the gas tax holiday. You are correct on all counts here, I was expressing why I may actually Vote Obama...it could get very interesting.
In addition to trying to get the Florida and Michigan delegates, have you noticed she's been playing up this "popular vote" notion? I think she's going to go to the convention claiming a popular vote win, even thoughthat's not how the nominee is chosen. Quite clever, wonder if she can pull it off.
I agree about Obama being able to win in November. But mostly because the polls indicate the republicans are going to lose seats in congress and the public generally wants a change in the white house.
Richard
To: Richard,
I do not think McCain can beat Obama and I think it is time to shakethings up...Conservatives are perhaps better at political philosophy thangoverning. Regan being the exception to the Rule. He was in my mind exactlywhat the country needed then. Perhaps Obama will do the same from adifferent starting point. As a conservative I will retain the option of critique. But the USA image around the world could use a Charisma Makeover.Obama can provide that. I foreign relations "Bella Figura" is essential right now we are "Fascia Bruta." I also think that a liberal democrat will be able to get congressional support for a vigorous defensive posture that they would automatically reject from a Republican President, politics trumping national security.
As much as I dislike the Iraq war and no matter how big a mistake it may have been, it has accomplished one thing most Democrats refuse to acknowledge. It has drawn the fire and wrath of Al Qaida on our military there and away from civilian targets here. Why do you think there has been no attack on USA soil since 2001? It is not because our security is so good;
the airport hassle is a ridiculous and useless policy of closing the door after the horses are out.
We are safer here because our troops are there. Most liberals lack realistic view of how dangerous and mean the world really is. They sincerely believethat if we are nice to other countries they will be nice to us. HA! Nations make decisions on their best interests. Terror organizations look for targets of opportunity. In my view universities have failed the nation by
not teaching history as historical science and instead using it as a propaganda tool for Liberal ideology, to which they have sold their souls, including so called Catholic Colleges.
Keep in mind the reality of Original Sin when evaluating potential behavior of opposing states. The goal is what is best interests of state X, as defined by the power elites of that nation state. Peace, Justice, and Charity, is at best means to an end, not values in themselves.
Respectfully
Eques
Dear Eques
I really couldn't disagree more about what fighting in Iraq is accomplishing.
The fight with al Qaida, in Iraq is a very small percentage (I've heard about 3%) of the overall violence. In fact, most of the violence we read about right now is the fight with Sadir and his militias. Al Qaida is to some extent working with the Sunnis, and very much against the Shiites.
Sadir is a Shiite. The other thing to remember is, al Qaida "in Iraq", is not part of the al Qaida operation run by Bin Laden. As much as Dick Cheney would like us to believe there is a connection, President Bush himself has acknowledged (unwillingly) that the two groups are independent of each other. So, taken as a whole, the war in Iraq has little to do with the war
on terror. Never did, never has. If we haven't had an attack on American soil since the Iraq war began, it's not because we are fighting that war, it's because our security is better. President Bush is famous for his straw man arguments, and one of them is "if we're not fighting them there, they will come here." First of all, Bin Ladin's Al Qaida isn't even there, so why hasn't he come here? And since the majority of violence in Iraq is sectarian in nature, why would they leave to come here once they've settled their civil war?
Richard
To: Richard,
Here the conservative liberal divide is to be found. Your observations make perfect sense IF Islam was a western phenomenon that approached situations with the logical and rational categories of Westerners. The philosophical and theological differences are so profound that to base predictive outcomes on western logic fails. You conclude "And since the majority of violence in Iraq is sectarian in nature, why would they leave to come here once they've settled their civil war?" Your implication is that once the civil war in IRAQ is over peace will follow and they will have no reason to come over here." Well why did they come here on 9/11/2001?
Most liberal thinkers say because the USA is unfair to the Palestinians and because we insist on having forward military bases in Arab Islamic Countries, Osama ordered an attack on New York, the Pentagon, the White house and the Capital Building. So the solution then is for us to be even
handed with the Palestinians and withdraw our forward bases in the Middle East. If even there was a total misreading of the intentions, design and motivation of the opposition this is it.
It totally dismisses and disrespects the stated goals of Hamas, Hezbollah, Al quida, and militant Islam. They need no excuse or reason to wage Jihad in the form of terrorism outside of what the Koran, the Hadith, and Sharia law gives them. They are duty bound by their understanding of Islam to wage war against the infidels (us Christians and Jews) and non-believers, secularists
of all types, agnostics and atheist. In fact as at least one left wing liberal of impeccable credentials Christopher Hitchens, believe that iberals and secularists should be the most hawkish in IRAQ, IRAN, PAKISTAN, and anywhere militant Islam raises its banner. He holds this opinion because
he takes Islam seriously when it says it will but people like him, left wing, liberals, and secularists to the sword, because they are the worst sort of unbelievers who think God does not exists or is irrelevant to modern life. This why 9/11/2001 happened and why the only reason that the groups you mentioned are not fighting us is that at the moment they are too busy fighting a fratricidal war in Iraq, If that is ever resolved or if there is a hegemony established in Iraq by one side or another. I can assure you that Islam will find ways to continue Jihad against the west. We can expect to be(we are) targets of opportunity and planning anywhere in the world.
As far as arguing that the reason we have not been 'attacked here since 9/11 2001 is a direct result of our increased security measures is difficult for a liberal to maintain, and still criticize the Bush administration for neglecting the war on terrorism by fighting in Iraq. There is no need to
attack us here if they can kill Americans on a daily basis there.
Finally there may be no organizational connections between Al quida in Iraq or anywhere else, there does not need to be. The connection will not show up on an organizational chart. This is another error in western thinking,which mistakenly concludes that if there is no organizational connection there is no real connection. Wrong, there is a much stronger connection that
needs no infrastructure or chain of command. The connection is Philosophical and Theological, it is found in the philosophies of the several organizations, and in their unquestioning belief in the words of the Koran. It provides the motivation and the raison d'être of these various Islamic militant groups and individuals. The verse of the sword "Slay the infidels where ever you find them."
Respectfully
Eques
